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Prequels Debate

Many thanks to the Reddit user Sea-Highway-4688 for finding and sharing this amazing thread from 2001 on Google Groups, in which George R. R. Martin (a friend of Zelazny's, read his RZ tribute here) weighs in with his strong opinions. This was eight years before the pilot episode of HBO's Game of Thrones, which thrust Martin into the global spotlight.

The link to the thread is here (bookmarked to GRRM's comment), but the entire thread is copy/pasted below to preserve it, in case the Google Group thread ever disappears.

The GRMM comment:

Dec 15, 2001, 5:49:42 PM

> I was surprised to hear that these books would be coming out. What exactly
>is the history on making the deal for these new books? I had been under the
>assumption that Roger Zelazny never wanted other writers to carry on his
>Amber series...?

Your impression was correct.

I was sickened and dismayed to hear about these books, rather than simply surprised.

Roger did not mind creating worlds and characters for other writers to play in; witness his ALIEN SPEEDWAY franchise and his contribution to WILD CARDS.

However, Amber and Corwin were special to him. He regarded Amber as his and his alone, and said several times, in no uncertain terms, that he did not want
any other writers writings about Amber. Ever.

Of course, he's dead now, and there's a buck to be made.

Those of us who were lucky enough to be Roger's friends in life will not be reading these books, out of respect to the man, his memory, and his clearly expressed wishes.

George R.R. Martin

The full thread:

frostatbr...@geenrotzooi.f2s.com

Nov 14, 2001, 4:46:27 PM

John (Betancourt), if you're reading this, AFAIK Zelazny specifically

asked that no new Amber stories would be written after his death... so

why are you going to do it then?

Not trying to condemn you or something, but just curious. I know that
if I liked a story enough to -want- to write in that universe, I would
respect the author's wishes in this regard.

R (remove @stuff to reply)

We pushed on, and there was blood on every
step as far back as I could see. There's a
moral there, somewhere.
-- Corwin, 'Nine Princes In Amber'

Matt Neumann

Nov 15, 2001, 2:27:45 PM

John Betancourt wrote:

> I love the series and will do a good job; it might as well be me

> writing them.

Hi, John! Thanks for hanging out on usenet; hope us great unwashed
don't end up driving you off ;)

May I ask if you're planning to mimic Zelazny's style? Or to develop
the same kinds of themes that he usually focused on? Or are you viewing
this as a chance for you to do your own take, in your own style, on his
world and characters?

Curious,
--
-Matt (mat...@hotmail.com)
Angband in action! Constant escalation to new depths to find angrier,
meaner letters and more punctuation!

Matthew Manley

Nov 17, 2001, 4:22:00 AM

John Betancourt <noe...@here.com> wrote in message

news:i487vt8u7f4osel3o...@4ax.com...

> >John (Betancourt), if you're reading this, AFAIK Zelazny specifically

> >asked that no new Amber stories would be written after his death... so

> >why are you going to do it then?

> Well, look at it this way: Zelazny's heirs, Zelazny's agent, and a

> publisher have all agreed that there will be more Amber books. It's

> simply a matter of who is going to write them at this point.

> I love the series and will do a good job; it might as well be me

> writing them.

I, for one, am glad to hear that. I do have my doubts, and feel that you
have some mighty big shoes to feel.

Still, I will buy at least the first one to see how well you do.

I think that it's fair to remind everybody that Zelazny did approve the Neil
Randall Crossroads Adventures (although it is also fair to say that Zelazny
did get to oversee that). I never got through Seven No Trump myself. I
just didn't get engaged with either the writing or the concept (it's been
too long and I can't remember which). I did find it for a buck fifty at a
flea market and picked it up for the second time. I might give it another
try, but I finally picked up a copy of Psychoshop and it's keeping me busy
for a while, not to mention the fact that I haven't found time to read
Summer Queen by Joan D. Vinge yet, or American Gods by Neil Gaiman. I have
more faith that those books will keep me engaged from start to finish.

>
> >Not trying to condemn you or something, but just curious. I know that
> >if I liked a story enough to -want- to write in that universe, I would
> >respect the author's wishes in this regard.
>

> Zelazny's wishes have nothing to do with whether these books get
> written. And my opinion doesn't matter -- whether I write them or not,
> they will get written.
>
> -- John

Roger

Nov 17, 2001, 10:54:09 AM

Matthew Manley <mat...@prodigy.net> wrote in message

news:IDsJ7.162$3j3.45...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

> John Betancourt <noe...@here.com> wrote in message

> news:i487vt8u7f4osel3o...@4ax.com...

> I, for one, am glad to hear that. I do have my doubts, and feel that you

> have some mighty big shoes to feel.

I love a good feel of some big shoes.... :) Does that make me a heel?

--
Roger

Remove the cork to reply....

Roger

Nov 17, 2001, 2:36:46 PM

John Betancourt <noe...@here.com> wrote in message

news:8iodvtgivlag1mgps...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:54:09 -0000, "Roger"

> <roger...@corkursa.co.uk> spoke thusly:

> >I love a good feel of some big shoes.... :) Does that make me a heel?

> No, a shoe fetishist.

> -- John

Oh - you have no sole! :)

Pertti Särelä

Nov 17, 2001, 4:58:38 PM

First I want to say that while I have some doubts, I'm confident that you'll

do a good job writing the new Amber books. Zelazny is one of the best, if not

the best, author of all time and Amber is one of the most interesting worlds

ever created. I'm very interested in reading how you write about them.

> The nice thing about writing a prequel series (the first book ends
> with Dworkin tracing Amber's pattern and creating Amber as we know it)
> is that it's not really in the familiar Amber universe that fans know.
> There's a lot of room for new work.

Are you going to use mainly Zelazny's characters or create your own? Will you
create your own mysteries or develop at least some of the unfinished
plotlines hinted in the Amber books, that were never really explained? Are
you going to write in the epic scale of events that affect the whole
multiverse as it is known? And finally is there a website about the new books
where I could have found all the information I'm asking?

bob sullivan

Nov 18, 2001, 2:42:27 PM

Roger wrote:

> John Betancourt <noe...@here.com> wrote in message

> news:8iodvtgivlag1mgps...@4ax.com...

> > On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:54:09 -0000, "Roger"

> > <roger...@corkursa.co.uk> spoke thusly:

> >

> > >I love a good feel of some big shoes.... :) Does that make me a heel?

> >

> > No, a shoe fetishist.

> >

> > -- John

> Oh - you have no sole! :)

RZ would be proud... After the fit hit the Shan. ;)

~bob

Roger

Nov 19, 2001, 4:47:45 AM

bob sullivan <bsul...@home.com> wrote in message

news:3BF83A58...@home.com...

Oddly enough, I reached that part of LoL last night (yes, its time for
another reread of the classics). Although the RZ pun that made me groan most
was "It was just one dammed thing after another...." (apologies for any
misquotation). :)

corwin

Nov 26, 2001, 2:15:51 PM

Forgive me for missing out, but could you give some background info on

yourself or point me to website where I can get some. Amber is very dear to

my heart and I would like to know you better.

--Corwin
cor...@gazebo.org

(and yes, I was given that name at birth and I am 35, go figure)

John Betancourt wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:09:17 -0700, "Max" <wils...@netscape.net>
> spoke thusly:
>
>>And did Zelazny leave any notes with his agent about Dworkin, the Pattern,
>>etc. that he didn't share with the general readership? Or do you have to
>>create it from the vague hints we know?
>
> I am recreating from the vague hints...I have been given no previously
> unseen reference material.
>
> -- John

Old Git

Nov 26, 2001, 3:37:39 PM

Sounds good. I also would like to hear a little more about you John (hope

you don't mind first name terms) I love the first 5 Amber books, I admire

the next 5 books and I would like to think that the 5? books that you are

writing will be superb, the books Roger himself would have wrote if he had

not been under such unreasonable pressure. Knowing a little about would help

to understand what and how you are approaching this Herculean task.

BTW I will probably buy the books, although I prefer paperbacks, so there
will be a little delay before you get any revenue from me.... sorry :-)

"corwin" <cor...@gazebo.org> wrote in message
news:9tufe6$5l1$1...@nntp2-cm.news.eni.net...

Chris Camfield

Nov 26, 2001, 8:33:55 PM

I don't know if it makes any sense, but I would rather see books which

aspire to match the level and the feel of the original series rather

than Merlin's chronicles. I feel there were a lot more links to

mythology (or that sort of feel) in Corwin's stories.

Chris

Mark Tumilty

Nov 29, 2001, 5:19:46 PM

"John Betancourt" <noe...@here.com> wrote in message

news:35260uk236lh0q3bc...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:37:39 -0000, "Old Git"

> >Sounds good. I also would like to hear a little more about you John (hope

> >you don't mind first name terms)

> Nope, happy to be called John.

> >I love the first 5 Amber books, I admire

> >the next 5 books and I would like to think that the 5? books that you are

> >writing will be superb, the books Roger himself would have wrote if he

had

> >not been under such unreasonable pressure. Knowing a little about would

help

> >to understand what and how you are approaching this Herculean task.

> See the last message I posted.

> >BTW I will probably buy the books, although I prefer paperbacks, so there

> >will be a little delay before you get any revenue from me.... sorry :-)

> Not a problem. I've just found out that the first book will be

> released by ibooks in September 2002 in hardcover. Now I just have to

> finish it! :)

Yes, I am Old Git :-)

Thanks a lot for that. I read the post where you introduce yourself rather
well. I will have to hassle my local bookseller to get a printout of what
books you have available, as there are none off-the-shelf in England :-(
Not good.

Do you have a web site set up yet?

If not I would like to help you get one set up. (although my web skills are
not top notch, I must admit)

Mark

cwmo...@earthlink.net

Dec 1, 2001, 8:26:24 AM

Don't screw this up. OK?

Wayne

JAMES WILLIAM FURLONG

Dec 6, 2001, 7:56:02 AM

All I have to say is - No Pressure!!

"John Betancourt" <noe...@here.com> wrote in message

news:694v0ugcqe47kflbc...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 01 Dec 2001 16:26:24 GMT, cwmo...@earthlink.net spoke thusly:

>
> >Don't screw this up. OK?
>

> That has never been my intention.
>
> -- John

Patrick Hulman

Dec 7, 2001, 5:08:15 PM

In article <6vg21u8vqi8kb4u43...@4ax.com>, noe...@here.com

says...

>Well, for the interested, I'm actually having a lot of fun writing the

>first book. I have several scenes which I think are worthy of Zelazny

>at his best. And I wrote the part where Oberon glimpsed the Unicorn

>for the first time this morning, which was fun.

>Just finished typesetting a new collection of Zelazny stories (well, a

>reshuffling of old collections, under the title THE LAST DEFENDER OF

>CAMELOT) for ibooks; Robert Silverberg selected his favorite Zelazny

>stories for the book, so I'm fully reimmersed in Zelaznyness for the

>moment.

>-- John

So, instead of making a new collection, ibooks is changing what was in THE LAST
DEFENDER OF CAMELOT. Why?

patrick

Chris Camfield

Dec 7, 2001, 10:03:33 PM

On Sat, 08 Dec 2001 01:08:15 GMT, phu...@nospambellsouth.net (Patrick

Hulman) wrote:

>In article <6vg21u8vqi8kb4u43...@4ax.com>, noe...@here.com
>says...

[snip]

>>Just finished typesetting a new collection of Zelazny stories (well, a
>>reshuffling of old collections, under the title THE LAST DEFENDER OF
>>CAMELOT) for ibooks; Robert Silverberg selected his favorite Zelazny
>>stories for the book, so I'm fully reimmersed in Zelaznyness for the
>>moment.
>

>So, instead of making a new collection, ibooks is changing what was in THE LAST
>DEFENDER OF CAMELOT. Why?

No, they're "just" reusing the title... and I'm guessing that this
might be for an online e-text publication - ibooks?

But if not... John, if you have any say in the matter, it's this
fan's opinion that this is a bad decision. It may be a good title,
but it makes no sense to create this kind of publication confusion.
If whoever with the rights ever wanted to republish the original Last
Defender of Camelot... they'd then have to change the name?

I know that Zelazny's collections were named after particular stories
in the collection. Isn't there another one among Silverberg's
selection that would qualify? _For a Breath I Tarry_, if it's
included, for instance? (Zelazny's forward says that it was his
favorite novella, at the time The Last Defender of Camelot was
published.)

Chris

Dan Stewart

Dec 8, 2001, 3:47:38 PM

Hi John...since you might be in "the know" about such things, do you know if

there is a chance there might be a collection of the Amber short stories that

Roger did? I've managed to find 3 of them, but the other two have been

difficult at best. I think most Amber fans would be interested in buying all

5 in one collection...

Thanks...

Dan.

In article <g8m41ug1lpe4b2llb...@4ax.com>, John Betancourt
<wild...@bungox.com> wrote:

>Table of contents includes a selection of stories from the original
>LAST DEFENDER OF CAMELOT, UNICORN VARIATIONS, and FROST AND FIRE, plus
>a previously uncollected novella, "Come Back to the Killing Ground,
>Alice, My Love" (from Amazing Stories).

bob sullivan

Dec 8, 2001, 5:53:47 PM

John Betancourt wrote:

> Table of contents includes a selection of stories from the original

> LAST DEFENDER OF CAMELOT, UNICORN VARIATIONS, and FROST AND FIRE, plus

> a previously uncollected novella, "Come Back to the Killing Ground,

> Alice, My Love" (from Amazing Stories).

Yay! The second Kalifriki story finally gets into a collection!!! :)

~bob

Scott Zrubek

Dec 8, 2001, 7:44:17 PM

In article <3c12a26f$1...@news.qnet.com>,

d...@kill.the.spam.danstewart.org (Dan Stewart) wrote:

> Hi John...since you might be in "the know" about such things, do you know if
> there is a chance there might be a collection of the Amber short stories that
> Roger did? I've managed to find 3 of them, but the other two have been
> difficult at best. I think most Amber fans would be interested in buying all
> 5 in one collection...
>
> Thanks...
>
> Dan.
>

Dan, the last I heard, neotiations we on-going about getting the Amber
shorts into a collection. I know a couple of groups are interested in
doing them, things just have to be worked out with the estate.

> In article <g8m41ug1lpe4b2llb...@4ax.com>, John Betancourt
> <wild...@bungox.com> wrote:
>
> >Table of contents includes a selection of stories from the original
> >LAST DEFENDER OF CAMELOT, UNICORN VARIATIONS, and FROST AND FIRE, plus
> >a previously uncollected novella, "Come Back to the Killing Ground,
> >Alice, My Love" (from Amazing Stories).

--
Scott Zrubek
Spring 2000 in Australia: http://www.itmm.com/australia
Zelazny & Amber: http://www.roger-zelazny.com

Patrick Hulman

Dec 8, 2001, 10:26:38 PM

In article <g8m41ug1lpe4b2llb...@4ax.com>, wild...@bungox.com

says...

>On Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:03:33 GMT, ccam...@email.com (Chris Camfield)

>wrote:

>>No, they're "just" reusing the title... and I'm guessing that this

>>might be for an online e-text publication - ibooks?

>ibooks publishes trade paperbacks.

>>But if not... John, if you have any say in the matter, it's this

>>fan's opinion that this is a bad decision. It may be a good title,

>>but it makes no sense to create this kind of publication confusion.

>>If whoever with the rights ever wanted to republish the original Last

>>Defender of Camelot... they'd then have to change the name?

>I have no say in the matter; I think it's a bad (and confusing) idea,

>but who listens to typesetters? :)

Bad and confusing. Not to mention sad and lazy. If they wanted it to name it

after one of the shorts, any of them would have been fine except that and

UNICORN VARIATIONS. I would have like to have seen 24 VIEWS OF MT. FUJI, BY

HOKUSAI.

What's next, a short story collection called LORDS OF LIGHT.

patrick

>
>Table of contents includes a selection of stories from the original
>LAST DEFENDER OF CAMELOT, UNICORN VARIATIONS, and FROST AND FIRE, plus
>a previously uncollected novella, "Come Back to the Killing Ground,
>Alice, My Love" (from Amazing Stories).
>

>-- John
>Wildside Press: http://www.wildsidepress.com

Roger Connor

Dec 9, 2001, 1:28:36 AM

This is definitely a "BAD IDEA" (R). I, as a reader, I must assume that a

title that I own already is not one I need to acquire.

Therefore, I would not pay attention to any books with titles I already

own, and I would never see a change in content. At least when books are

published under two different titles, I check out the one I theoretically

haven't acquired, thus seeing the content being the same as one I have

under a different title.

I agree with the other posters- use the title of one of the other stories,
or call it Zelazny Collection 1, but NOT the title of an existing book.
Please , please, use your influence and refer to us here on the ng if need
be!
Roger Connor
Zelazny Fan since 1960.

John Betancourt wrote:

> On Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:03:33 GMT, ccam...@email.com (Chris Camfield)
> wrote:
>

> >No, they're "just" reusing the title... and I'm guessing that this
> >might be for an online e-text publication - ibooks?
>

> ibooks publishes trade paperbacks.

>
> >But if not... John, if you have any say in the matter, it's this
> >fan's opinion that this is a bad decision. It may be a good title,
> >but it makes no sense to create this kind of publication confusion.
> >If whoever with the rights ever wanted to republish the original Last
> >Defender of Camelot... they'd then have to change the name?
>

> I have no say in the matter; I think it's a bad (and confusing) idea,
> but who listens to typesetters? :)
>

RavensZim

Dec 10, 2001, 1:20:09 PM

Hi John....

Always good to hear that there will be new Amber stories out there. I did

some illustrations for some Roger Zelazny stories in the past, and was lucky

enough to have met the man a few times...

I was surprised to hear that these books would be coming out. What exactly

is the history on making the deal for these new books? I had been under the

assumption that Roger Zelazny never wanted other writers to carry on his Amber

series...?

RavensZim

Dec 10, 2001, 1:29:48 PM

Actually, with these newer printings, the important thing is to reach new

readers....Im sure most Zelazny fans will scan through the books on the shelves

to see what's inside....

There's nothing more depresssing than going to a bookstore's sci fi section

and finding NO NEW books on the shelf by Roger Zelazny...

note to John: The Zelazny Amber short stories are perfect for an

illustrated edition in hardback, possibly color interiors, with high-grade

printing...

RavensZim

Dec 10, 2001, 4:49:44 PM

Anything that brings him to the

attention of new readers should be welcomed.

Agreed, but let's hope for GREAT new stories in the Amber world, rather than
mediocre stuff that might lead people to expect that from Zelazny's Amber and
other stories...

Scott Zrubek

Dec 10, 2001, 4:47:36 PM

In article <20011210162948...@mb-ma.aol.com>,

rave...@aol.com (RavensZim) wrote:

Offering to do illustrations, RavensZim ? ;)

Jennifer Martin

Dec 10, 2001, 5:10:24 PM

Try going to a bookstore and finding no Zelazny beyond the big 1-10 Book of

Amber. The local Borders has a pathetic selection at best.

RavensZim

Dec 10, 2001, 6:15:55 PM

Offering to do illustrations, RavensZim ? ;)

That offer is ALWAYS out there for Zelazny

stories....I actually did do some drawings for a first printing of one of those

short stories in Pirate Writings, but only one was printed...

I honestly think that considering the small amount of stories, the vivid
descriptions with short text, that these tales would work great with an
assortment of illustrations...

Scott Zrubek

Dec 10, 2001, 6:57:52 PM

In article <20011210211555...@mb-fg.aol.com>,

rave...@aol.com (RavensZim) wrote:

Absolutely. Now, if we can get permission to do the book.............

Roger

Dec 13, 2001, 4:18:49 PM

quazer <quazer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:8eka1usl8p5lcv1gs...@4ax.com...

> On 10 Dec 2001 21:29:48 GMT, rave...@aol.com (RavensZim) wrote:

> >Actually, with these newer printings, the important thing is to reach new

> >readers....Im sure most Zelazny fans will scan through the books on the

shelves

> >to see what's inside....

> > There's nothing more depresssing than going to a bookstore's sci fi

section

> >and finding NO NEW books on the shelf by Roger Zelazny...

> Or worse, NO books by him. Gradually, since Roger died, his books have

> been slowly disappearing over here in the UK. Only in the largest

> dedicated SF bookshops are you likely to find one or two books.

> It's sad to think that new generations of readers will grow up never

> having heard of him except perhaps through the personal

> reccommendations of his fans. Anything that brings him to the

> attention of new readers should be welcomed.

Although I must applaud Borders here in Oxford for having LOL, The
Chronicles of Amber, This Immortal, The Dream Master and Psycho shop(sp?) at
the last count. I'd recommend their SF section (got some Alfred Bester as
well :)) Still no copy of Creatures though....

Roger

Dec 13, 2001, 4:20:39 PM

quazer <quazer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:sau71usrk8hsqgola...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 09 Dec 2001 15:18:52 GMT, John Betancourt <noe...@here.com>

> wrote:

> >On Sun, 09 Dec 2001 14:42:01 GMT, quazer <quazer...@hotmail.com>

> >spoke thusly:

> >

> >>What a shame. I think a great opportunity has been missed here. I'm

> >>sure most Zelazny fans have already got all his short story

> >>anthologies. What I've been waiting for for years is for someone to

> >>pull together a new collection of some of his uncollected stories. Oh

> >>well, maybe next year...

> >

> >Your wish may yet be granted. I have gotten permission from ibooks for

> >Darrell Schweitzer, Warren Lapine, and me to put together a proposal

> >for a volume of uncollected Zelazny stories. (There are about 40

> >stories.)

> >

> >If Byron Preiss likes it, that may well be the next collection from

> >ibooks.

> >

> >-- John

> That's fantastic news, if it comes off. You've got one guaranteed

> sale, anyway.

Make that two.

RavensZim

Dec 15, 2001, 9:56:56 AM

No, he didn't want more; his heirs, his agent, and ibooks wanted more,

so they made a deal. I've been hired to write them. Not much more to

it than that.

No offense intended, John...Just curious

GeoRR

Dec 15, 2001, 5:49:42 PM

> I was surprised to hear that these books would be coming out. What exactly

>is the history on making the deal for these new books? I had been under the

>assumption that Roger Zelazny never wanted other writers to carry on his

>Amber

>series...?

Your impression was correct.

I was sickened and dismayed to hear about these books, rather than simply
surprised.

Roger did not mind creating worlds and characters for other writers to play
in; witness his ALIEN SPEEDWAY franchise and his contribution to WILD CARDS.

However, Amber and Corwin were special to him. He regarded Amber as his and
his alone, and said several times, in no uncertain terms, that he did not want
any other writers writings about Amber. Ever.

Of course, he's dead now, and there's a buck to be made.

Those of us who were lucky enough to be Roger's friends in life will not be
reading these books, out of respect to the man, his memory, and his clearly
expressed wishes.

George R.R. Martin

RavensZim

Dec 15, 2001, 6:57:57 PM

Hi George,

On the other hand, the creation of the Amber game spawned tons of amateur

Amber stories that have been published in limited form(1,000 copies or less)

featuring the characters....Personally, I wont be able to accept any other

writer's views as "gospel" Amber, even if it was supposedly part of an RZ

outline or some such- much like they guys doing the Dune prelude books claim...

The pastiche stories written about Robert E. Howard's Conan come to mind, as

well...but i have to wonder, what would become of the Amber series eventually

if these kind of projects weren't done?

Finally, as an artist, I know when I dont want to compromise...but if my

wife and kids were left in true NEED financially, I'd certainly put their

welfare above such things...It's a delicate situation, to say the least...

Jennifer Martin

Dec 16, 2001, 12:07:19 PM

Okay, I've been following this thread since almost the beginning. I have

one thing to say: No matter how much we love Amber, it is a fictional thing.

Now some of you have been down-right venomous about the new books. If you
don't like it that much, don't buy it, don't read the threads, don't bother.
It's not like it's John's "fault/idea" that there are more books being
written. We all know that when push comes to shove, money wins out more
often then not. And it's not like John is a shabby writer. He has some
very telling credentials.

To sum up: John, I hope you do well in your endeavor on this. Personally,
it means a lot to me that it matter this much to you and that you're trying
this hard. And don't listen to the nay-sayers too much, after all, it may
be Roger's idea, but these are YOUR books.

Knock 'em dead.

JoatSimeon

Dec 16, 2001, 3:55:38 PM

>However, Amber and Corwin were special to him. He regarded Amber as his and

his alone, and said several times, in no uncertain terms, that he did not want

any other writers writings about Amber. Ever.

-- Roger's wishes should have been respected.

Our creations are part of ourselves. It's a violation when they're used
against our wishes.
-- S.M. Stirling

JJM1954

Dec 16, 2001, 4:32:01 PM

>From: "Jennifer Martin" jennif...@home.com

>Now some of you have been down-right venomous about the new books.

Actually, I would say that there's been very little venom. The discussion has
generally been polite.

> If you
>don't like it that much, don't buy it, don't read the threads, don't bother.

Of course, you're not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to express their
opinions? Are you?

Jennifer Martin

Dec 16, 2001, 4:42:56 PM

But some of the criticism hasn't been expression. It's been negative,

completely unconstructive. Through and through. I mean, half the crowd has

been encouraging and the other half has had nothing better to say then it

shouldn't be done. Now I know not respecting a dead man's wishes is kind of

suspect, but gez, accept reality. The ink is dry, the deal is done, the

books are gonna be written. At this point the only thing that can stop it

is sueing.

> Of course, you're not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to express
their
> opinions? Are you?

Oh, and if you meant to be half as smarmy as it sounded, you should be happy
to know I took offense at that. An opinion is truly personal, and in that
spirit, everyone has one. I believe I could never write half as good as
Zelazny, so while I truly want to see these books written, I know I could
never do it, so I'm glad someone with writing credits I can respect IS
writing it.

JJM1954

Dec 16, 2001, 5:15:41 PM

>From: "Jennifer Martin" jennif...@home.com

>But some of the criticism hasn't been expression.

This means what, exactly?

>I mean, half the crowd has
>been encouraging and the other half has had nothing better to say then it
>shouldn't be done.

There's nothing wrong with saying it shouldn't be done. That's their opinion.
It shouldn't be done. Roger's wishes, expressed over and over again, should be
respected in this regard. Get it?

>Oh, and if you meant to be half as smarmy as it sounded, you should be happy
>to know I took offense at that.

I don't care what you take offense at. My advice is to grow a thicker skin if
you took offense because a sentence I wrote sounded "smarmy" to you.

> An opinion is truly personal,

Yes.

>so while I truly want to see these books written,

And others truly DON"T want these books written (including Roger); what you're
still saying is that you don't want people expressing this particular opinion.

Too bad. It's been expressed. Very politely, too. At least, I can recall no
flames regarding this. Deal with it.

GeoRR

Dec 16, 2001, 7:31:40 PM

>But some of the criticism hasn't been expression. It's been negative,

>completely unconstructive.

I don't know how one can be "constructive" about something like this...
especially since "the deal is done."

The most constructive suggestion I was able to come up with, when I first
learned of this outrage, was to suggest that these posthumous Amber books be
scrapped in favor of sequels to some of Roger's other worlds or franchises.

He would not want anyone to do a sequel to LORD OF LIGHT -- in fact, he turned
down some big money offers to write such a sequel himself during his life --
but there were other properties, like ROADMARKS, that would lend themselves to
continuations. I don't think Roger would have minded that. Not Amber, though.
Amber was special to him.

<< Now I know not respecting a dead man's wishes is kind of suspect, but gez,
accept reality.>>

"Kind of suspect?" Well, maybe he's just "a dead man" to you, but to some of
us he was a friend, and it hurts deeply to see his wishes being disregarded.

<< The ink is dry, the deal is done, the
books are gonna be written. >>

Maybe if there was enough outcry, some of the parties concerned might step back
and say, "You know, this is wrong, I am not going to do this after all."

I know, I'm naive.

Roger himself, during his lifetime, finished books from fragments left behind
by Philip K. Dick and Alfred Bester... but I will tell you one thing. He would
NEVER have taken on those projects if he thought for a moment that Dick or
Bester would have been opposed to them. Not for all the money in the world.

George R.R. Martin

bob sullivan

Dec 16, 2001, 9:21:37 PM

GeoRR wrote:

> Roger himself, during his lifetime, finished books from fragments left behind

> by Philip K. Dick and Alfred Bester...

I know I'm splitting hairs here, but... I assume the PK Dick book
you're referring to is _Deus Irae_. Didn't RZ finish that book while
Dick was still alive? I thought I remembered reading that Dick gave
him the book because he'd gotten stuck and didn't know how to proceed
with it, so he thought he'd give RZ a crack at it... But I could be
misremembering.

~bob

T.England

Dec 17, 2001, 1:50:51 AM

joats...@aol.com (JoatSimeon) wrote in message news:<20011216185538...@mb-fc.aol.com>...

A part of ourselves that lasts beyond our own mortality. That legacy
can be watered down into a grotesque parody of itself when someone
else gets his hands on it. Why is Roger's wish being ignored? Money.
Come on. Why does Roger's legacy have to be destroyed for such a
puerile reason? Imagination dried up? Can't think of anything on your
own? "Well, shoot, why not rob someone's grave? He cain't say anythin'
about it."
Bah.
TEngland

Scott Zrubek

Dec 17, 2001, 3:09:18 PM

In article <ak8s1uchnglbomnuh...@4ax.com>,

John Betancourt <noe...@here.com> wrote:

> It looks like Darrell Schweitzer, Warren Lapine, and I will be editing
> a new collection of Zelazny material for ibooks, pulling together as
> much uncollected material as we can. Working title is NINE STARSHIPS
> WAITING.
>
> Question: does anyone know anything about a story called "Conditional
> Benefit"? It was being serialized (in 2 parts) in a fanzine called
> THURBAN #3, Aug 1953. The 2nd part was apparently never published. We
> would like to see the whole work, if extant somewhere.
>
> Otherwise, the book will include:
>
> "The Borgia Hand"
> "Circle Has Her Problems"
> "Come to Me Not in Winter's White" (Collaboration with Harlan Ellison)
> "The Drawing"
> "Final Dining"
> "He That Moves"
> "Heritage"
> "The Injured"
> "King Solomon's Ring"
> "The Last In on the Road" (Collaboration with Dannie Platcha)
> "The Malatesta Collection"
> "The Man At the Corner of Now & Forever"
> "Mine is the Kingdom"
> "The Misfit"
> "Monologue for Two"
> "Moonless in Byzantium"
> "Nine Starships Waiting"
> "Of Time and the Yan"
> "On the Road to Splenoba"
> "The Salvation of Faust"
> "Song of the Blue Baboon"
> "The Teachers Rode a Wheel of Fire"
> "Threshold of the Prophet"
> "The Year of the Good Seed" (Collaboration with Dannie Platcha)
>
> Plus at least one interview and a few essays.
>
> -- John

John,

How long were you in talks with Roger's agent before this deal came
through?

JJM1954

Dec 17, 2001, 5:11:47 PM

>From: quazer quazer...@hotmail.com

>As John Miller said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that's
>my 2 pennies.

Not an unreasonable opinion.

You should recognize, however, that Amber did indeed die with Roger, as
unfortunate as that is. John can do a stupendous job with the new books, but
it will not be Amber because Amber came from Roger and Roger alone and no one
will be able to duplicate it. It's a sad thing, but, really there will be no
new Amber books, no matter what they're called (all due respect to John).

RavensZim

Dec 17, 2001, 6:55:39 PM

It's a sad thing, but, really there will be no

new Amber books, no matter what they're called

I agree...
All you have to do is look at the Conan pastiches, and ask the common reader
what he thinks of Conan stories, and you can see the damage bad pastiches can
do...Most readers never separate the campy stories from robert E. Howard's
great tales...

But, as I pointed out in an earlier post, Amber gaming stories have been around
and a huge following of that game has created a big audience for "watered down"
Amber ...the encyclopedia, the games, the illustrated guide, ect....

Put it this way...the deal may be done, but these new stories will be no more a
true "Amber" story than any game players' game log will be....my 2 1/2 cents
worth

RavensZim

Dec 17, 2001, 7:10:07 PM

I accept that Roger didn't want anyone else to write about Amber. But

perhaps he was wrong about that, and that Amber shouldn't be allowed

to die with him.

When the discussion turned to finishing a late writer' work at a convention, at
a question and answer session, I asked Mr. Zelazny if he kept an outline on the
Amber series, in case he left a character in a particular cliff-hanger
ending...I used the "trapped in a blue cave" example...I think he said that he
didn't like to work with an outline on Amber, and that if he'd be gone, he'd
just leave it up to "some other capable hands..." I remember the question,
because i didnt realize he was ill at the time, and i feel bad that I asked
that question in retrospect...
The fact is, the series is hardly left on a cliff-hanger ending..just a
living world with all sorts of possibilities...

Carl Henderson

Dec 17, 2001, 7:33:42 PM

jjm...@aol.com (JJM1954) wrote in

news:20011217201147...@mb-fk.aol.com:

> You should recognize, however, that Amber did indeed die with Roger, as
> unfortunate as that is. John can do a stupendous job with the new
> books, but it will not be Amber because Amber came from Roger and Roger
> alone and no one will be able to duplicate it. It's a sad thing, but,
> really there will be no new Amber books, no matter what they're called
> (all due respect to John).

Perhaps someone who knew Roger Zelazny can clairify something that has
baffled me since this discussion began. It is said that Zelazny requested
no one write more Amber books after he died, on the other hand, while he
was living Zelazny authorized Phage Press's AMBERZINE--of which 80% is what
amounts to Amber fan fiction. While Amber was Zelazny's, and was his to do
with as he pleased, this seems a curious attitude to take.

While I might consider buying some non-Zelazny Amber books, I'll be looking
at them as essentially Amber fan fiction that someone got paid for. In
other words, possibly interesting stories, but no more a continuation of
the "real" Amber than my Amber DRPG campaign. (Note this is _not_ intended
as a criticism of John Betancourt's writing skills.)

Who knows, perhaps Zelazny was tickled by the idea of "shadows" of Amber...

--
Carl Henderson carl.he...@airmail.net
Top 300 Report Archive http://j_carl_henderson.tripod.com/
RAC/RACM FAQ http://www.enteract.com/~katew/faqs/miscfaq.htm

Uri Bruck

Dec 17, 2001, 8:47:36 PM

John Betancourt <noe...@here.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:07:19 GMT, "Jennifer Martin"
><jennif...@home.com> spoke thusly:

>
>>To sum up: John, I hope you do well in your endeavor on this. Personally,
>>it means a lot to me that it matter this much to you and that you're trying
>>this hard. And don't listen to the nay-sayers too much, after all, it may
>>be Roger's idea, but these are YOUR books.
>

>Thank you.
>
>Actually, the objections here have been much less than I would have
>expected, and overall quite polite for Usenet.
I got the impression they suddenly got more polite after your first
post, but I might be wrong.

>
>If anyone has a problem with new Amber books, the person to address is
>not me but the agent and whoever authorized the books on the estate's
>end.
While they are the people to address, you are one who accepted the
job, so you are now part of this, for better or for worse.

> They are the ones who guard the Roger Zelazny name and the
>integrity of Roger's wishes. However, it should be recognized that
>real, day-to-day financial needs are often more important to families
>than respecting the wishes of someone who has passed away. With that
>in mind, I'm sure Roger was practical and pragmatic enough to want his
>loved ones living in comfort, even if it meant some compromise to his
>desires. (That's certainly how I would feel.) That said, I have no
>special knowledge of their situation or the thought process which went
>on behind the decision to authorize more Amber novels.
Perhaps. He had a lot of other material to draw on, some of which he
did open up, and if a choice other than Amber had been pursued, it
would not have offended so many people.

But this is not just about his wishes (even though I feel that is a
very important issue)
>
>And, on that note, I am done explaining what I am doing: read the new
>books if you're interested, skip them if you're not.
I haven't read any of your books, when I saw the list of titles it
became clear to me why, it's not the kind of books that usually
attract me. So I have no opinion on your writing. I have no way of
knowing whether or not you're a mastercraftsman. I have no way of
knowing whether or not you're as well read as Zelazny obviously was.
All I have is your postings here. I think the choice of viewpoint
character was totally wrong. Even at the end there, when Corwin
understands so much more of reality than he did before, and has
learned a lot about himself and about his father, he still says of
Oberon that they never really understood all of his powers, and Oberon
makes some interesting implications, and it's not important what he
implies, it's important that they're made, that there's this something
bigger here.

> It doesn't matter
>to me. I'm enjoying working on the first book immensely, and I write
>for my own enjoyment.
I'm sure you are enjoying it. There are many ways to write a book as
part of a dialog with another book, or the ideas in that book. A
prequel, or writing in the same world, is not necessarily the best way
to go about it, not even the most interesting way. From your postings
it is obvious that this is not the motivation behind this project.

>
>I will continue to be here and answer questions which I feel are
>appropriate and on-topic.
>
>And let me leave you with one thought: I also strongly suspect that
>these new books (and future Amber novels) will go a long way toward
>keeping Roger's own work in print and available for years to come.
>It's hard to keep any backlist titles in print without some sort of
>frontlist support.

Someone else made on this thread made a similar point, something along
the lines of what would become of Amber without those new books.

"The Great Book of Amber" was published just last year, and I
understand it sold quite well. So Amber does sell itself. Classics do.

I was pleased to George R R Martin's post on this thread. It was
needed.

Thanks,
Uri

>
>-- John

Frost

Dec 18, 2001, 3:46:50 AM

Things fall apart; the center cannot hold. But what the hell, it's

home. And here ge...@aol.com (GeoRR) wrote on 16 Dec 2001 01:49:42

GMT:

Alas I never knew him but through his stories. However, in my mind
there is no other who -can- make Amber but Zelazny.
If I want to I could make a history for Oberon and Amber, however they
would be just my opinion of it and not true Amber. That is how I see
the new books which are going to be written by John Betancourt.

No matter how 'good' they might be, they won't be Amber, they would be
his impression of Amber... and I for one don't really care to read
someone elses impression of it.

I won't be reading these books.

R (remove @stuff to reply)

We pushed on, and there was blood on every
step as far back as I could see. There's a
moral there, somewhere."
-- Corwin, 'Nine Princes In Amber'

ckovacs

Dec 18, 2001, 6:24:02 AM

bob sullivan <bsul...@home.com> wrote in message news:<3C1D822A...@home.com>...

The book came out in 1976 and Dick signed copies of it before his
death in 1982. So you are indeed remembering correctly.

Chris

[substitute @mun.ca for my main address]

Kevin

Dec 18, 2001, 6:30:37 AM

> > Question: does anyone know anything about a story called "Conditional

> > Benefit"? It was being serialized (in 2 parts) in a fanzine called

> > THURBAN #3, Aug 1953. The 2nd part was apparently never published. We

> > would like to see the whole work, if extant somewhere.

> >

As a last resort, you might try SUNY at Syracuse -- Some of Roger's
papers ended up in their Science Fiction special collection:

Author: Zelazny, Roger.
Title: Papers,
Dates: 1954-1991.
Description: 5.5 linear ft.
Location: Bird-Spec Coll, Manuscripts

Bird Library
http://libwww.syr.edu/index.html

Reference Desk
http://libwww.syr.edu/information/isd/index.html

Regards,
Kevin Miller

ckovacs

Dec 18, 2001, 6:32:50 AM

Scott Zrubek <sco...@itmm.com> wrote in message news:<scottz-91D67D....@newssvr12-ext.news.prodigy.com>...

> In article <ak8s1uchnglbomnuh...@4ax.com>,

> John Betancourt <noe...@here.com> wrote:

> > It looks like Darrell Schweitzer, Warren Lapine, and I will be editing

> > a new collection of Zelazny material for ibooks, pulling together as

> > much uncollected material as we can. Working title is NINE STARSHIPS

> > WAITING.

> >

I am absolutely delighted to hear that a collection may finally
happen. In the permanent absence of new Zelazny material, the next
best thing to me is old Zelazny works that I have never read before.

By the way, I have been puzzled by the ABSENCE of John Betancourt's
messages on the different servers that I use. Both google and the
university server that I use seem to ignore John's messages, such that
there are posts replying to messages that don't exist. Not sure why
this is. I noticed that many of his messages appear on the AOL
server, by why not the others is strange. That's why I'm replying to
Scott's message here and not John's, because John's doesn't appear.

Chris

[change to @mun.ca for my main address]

Roger

Dec 18, 2001, 9:54:21 AM

quazer <quazer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:2qfk1u4ma6c5kifuu...@4ax.com...

> (snip)

> >

> >Although I must applaud Borders here in Oxford for having LOL, The

> >Chronicles of Amber, This Immortal, The Dream Master and Psycho shop(sp?)

> >the last count. I'd recommend their SF section (got some Alfred Bester as

> >well :)) Still no copy of Creatures though....

> I don't know Oxford too well, but I can imagine it's strong on books

> of all sorts. Not much in the Sheffield area though :(

> I've got an old battered copy of Creatures that I found on a market

> stall, so it was published in the UK in paperback, back in 1972. I've

> got it in one of those plastic covers you can get from library

> suppliers, to protect it from further damage.

Oxford is quite good for books, but for a real treat the missus and I head
off to Hay-On-Wye for the second hand shops!

Blackjack Davy

Dec 18, 2001, 10:32:55 AM

ge...@aol.com (GeoRR) wrote in message news:<20011215204942...@mb-fq.aol.com>...

So you're keeping an open mind, right? I'm only a lowly short fiction
writer, not a fully fledged author and editor, but I had always had
the idea that FIRST you read something, THEN took cheap shots at it.
If the books suck, you'll hear about it soon enough. Chill out,
Spartacus.
And don't tell me the editor of the *Wild Cards series* for God's sake
is uncomfortable with the idea of milking a concept to death.
Cordially,
-BJD

Lee Foster

Dec 18, 2001, 1:52:07 PM

ge...@aol.com:

> The most constructive suggestion I was able to come up with, when I first

> learned of this outrage, was to suggest that these posthumous Amber books be

> scrapped in favor of sequels to some of Roger's other worlds or franchises.

> He would not want anyone to do a sequel to LORD OF LIGHT -- in fact, he turned

> down some big money offers to write such a sequel himself during his life --

> but there were other properties, like ROADMARKS, that would lend themselves to

> continuations. I don't think Roger would have minded that. Not Amber, though.

> Amber was special to him.

An excellant suggestion. Many of the worlds he created are fertile
ground for many more stories. The worlds of MADWAND and DILVISH come
to mind as well. In fact, I always assumed there was to be another
novel in the MADWAND series. MY NAME IS LEGION would be another great
property.

> << Now I know not respecting a dead man's wishes is kind of suspect, but gez,
> accept reality.>>
>
> "Kind of suspect?" Well, maybe he's just "a dead man" to you, but to some of
> us he was a friend, and it hurts deeply to see his wishes being disregarded.
>

It is a shame that Mr. Zelazny's estate was not specifically required
to maintain his wishes in this area. It is sad that his heirs are not
following his wishes. At least, that's how it appears. Shame on
them.

> << The ink is dry, the deal is done, the
> books are gonna be written. >>
>
> Maybe if there was enough outcry, some of the parties concerned might step back
> and say, "You know, this is wrong, I am not going to do this after all."
>
> I know, I'm naive.

Well, Sir, you should know the industry better than most of us here.
What do you think? The almighty dollar strikes again.

> Roger himself, during his lifetime, finished books from fragments left behind
> by Philip K. Dick and Alfred Bester... but I will tell you one thing. He would
> NEVER have taken on those projects if he thought for a moment that Dick or
> Bester would have been opposed to them. Not for all the money in the world.
>
> George R.R. Martin

True ethics are hard to find in this day and age. Yet another reason
to respect RZ.

Lee

(OT - speaking of sequels, are you planning anymore TUF stories?)

JJM1954

Dec 18, 2001, 2:23:51 PM

>From: carl.he...@airmail.net (Carl Henderson)

>Roger Zelazny can clairify something that has
>baffled me since this discussion began. It is said that Zelazny requested
>no one write more Amber books after he died, on the other hand, while he
>was living Zelazny authorized Phage Press's AMBERZINE--of
>which 80% is what
>amounts to Amber fan fiction. While Amber was Zelazny's, and was his to do
>with as he pleased, this seems a curious attitude to take.

Well, I would clarify if I could but I'm afraid I'm totally unfamiliar with
AMBERZINE. My best guess is that Roger had a soft spot in his heart for his
fans, and couldn't say no sometimes. That's just a guess.

John Miller

Blackjack Davy

Dec 19, 2001, 4:18:44 AM

cko...@mac.com (ckovacs) wrote in message

> By the way, I have been puzzled by the ABSENCE of John Betancourt's

> messages on the different servers that I use. Both google and the

> university server that I use seem to ignore John's messages, such that

> there are posts replying to messages that don't exist. Not sure why

> this is. I noticed that many of his messages appear on the AOL

> server, by why not the others is strange. That's why I'm replying to

> Scott's message here and not John's, because John's doesn't appear.

> Chris

> [change to @mun.ca for my main address]

I thought it was just me. Kind of ironic that arguably the most
important posts on the group are the ones that google choose not to
notice. Unless google happen to be all diehard fans of the
"suffer-thou-not-the-fanfic" variety, that is...
-BJD

bob sullivan

Dec 19, 2001, 6:30:22 PM

Oh, goody, I may *not* be going crazy, after all... ;)

Thanks,
bob

bob sullivan

Dec 19, 2001, 6:39:38 PM

Blackjack Davy wrote:

> ge...@aol.com (GeoRR) wrote in message news:<20011215204942...@mb-fq.aol.com>...

> > Those of us who were lucky enough to be Roger's friends in life will not be

> > reading these books, out of respect to the man, his memory, and his clearly

> > expressed wishes.

> >

> > George R.R. Martin

> So you're keeping an open mind, right? I'm only a lowly short fiction

> writer, not a fully fledged author and editor, but I had always had

> the idea that FIRST you read something, THEN took cheap shots at it.

> If the books suck, you'll hear about it soon enough. Chill out,

> Spartacus.

> And don't tell me the editor of the *Wild Cards series* for God's sake

> is uncomfortable with the idea of milking a concept to death.

> Cordially,

> -BJD

Seems to me GRRM has every right in the world to disapprove of the
books on principle alone, without having read them. After all, he
*was* lucky enuf to be a personal friend of RZ.

~bob

GeoRR

Dec 19, 2001, 9:03:53 PM

>So you're keeping an open mind, right? I'm only a lowly short fiction

>writer, not a fully fledged author and editor, but I had always had

>the idea that FIRST you read something, THEN took cheap shots at it.

>If the books suck, you'll hear about it soon enough. Chill out,

>Spartacus.

The quality of the books is not the issue. The issue is that Roger's wishes
are being disregarded.

>And don't tell me the editor of the *Wild Cards series* for God's sake
>is uncomfortable with the idea of milking a concept to death.

Roger was free to "milk" Amber as much or as little as he liked. It was his.
He did not want it franchised, and those who care about it should respect that
wish.

Arcum Dagsson

Dec 19, 2001, 9:38:46 PM

In article <84b3948d.01121...@posting.google.com>,

blackja...@my-deja.com (Blackjack Davy) wrote:

Actually, in John Betancourts headers, it says "X-No-Archive: yes", which tells
google not to archive the posts...

--
--Arcum
"Horrors and monsters are creatures of the night that have no business being up
and about on a bright, warm, sunny morning, or so most think. Few stop and think
that should evil rest between dawn and dusk it would be a far simpler and less
dangerous place." (Jack Chalker: The Messiah Choice)

Blackjack Davy

Dec 20, 2001, 3:02:06 AM

Arcum Dagsson <Arcum_...@another.c.o.m> wrote in message news:<Arcum_Dagsson-CF6...@72.71-127.64.133.209.in-addr.arpa>...

> In article <84b3948d.01121...@posting.google.com>,

> blackja...@my-deja.com (Blackjack Davy) wrote:

> > cko...@mac.com (ckovacs) wrote in message

> > > By the way, I have been puzzled by the ABSENCE of John Betancourt's

> > > messages on the different servers that I use. Both google and the

> > > university server that I use seem to ignore John's messages, such that

> > > there are posts replying to messages that don't exist. Not sure why

> > > this is. I noticed that many of his messages appear on the AOL

> > > server, by why not the others is strange. That's why I'm replying to

> > > Scott's message here and not John's, because John's doesn't appear.

> > >

> > > Chris

> > >

> > > [change to @mun.ca for my main address]

> >

> > I thought it was just me. Kind of ironic that arguably the most

> > important posts on the group are the ones that google choose not to

> > notice. Unless google happen to be all diehard fans of the

> > "suffer-thou-not-the-fanfic" variety, that is...

> > -BJD

> Actually, in John Betancourts headers, it says "X-No-Archive: yes", which tells

> google not to archive the posts...

Ah, that would probably explain it. Of course, had I been able to see
the header, this might have become apparent to me also. Is this how
wars start?
-BJD

Find my All Roads Lead to Amber podcast on Spotify or Apple Podcast.

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